Nigger...there, I said it, and I have no qualms about it. I am at a loss as to why we cannot have a discussion in this country about this word without falling back on the 6th Grade-esque use of "N-word". I brought this up at Thursday night's meeting, and you would have thought I had publicly lynched Bill Cosby. There was a shocked gasp from my otherwise intelligent friends, when I asked what was wrong with saying the word "Nigger" in the context of "I believe the word Nigger is very offensive."
Just for the record, I do find the word "Nigger" very offensive. I used this word extensively when I was younger, and even made a habit of passing on jokes relating to this word. It was while hanging out with a black friend of mine in Littlefield in 1985, that it was made clear to me what this word meant to Black people. I ceased using the word in that context at that point and have not done it since. I promised one of the TNT members, I would have this discussion with that same Black friend to get his take on it, and I intend to follow up on that.
I am not interested in discussing the strange fact that it seems to be okay for Blacks to use that word, but not Whites. That is not the point. It is a word in the English language, and in the proper context, should be used. I mean...what the "F-word" is wrong with us?
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33 comments:
"He Who Must Not Be Named".
Your post automatically brought to mind that reference for me...as if by saying the word "nigger", even in the context of having a thoughtful or intelligent debate about its social impact, we are somehow in danger of bringing evil and corruption down upon our heads.
I was brought up in a different generation than you, Bat -- and I have never called a black person a "nigger" or used the word "nigger" to describe a black person with any level of ambivalence or nonchalance -- but I certainly have no problem saying the word out loud (gasp!) in a discussion. By refusing to even utter the word out loud (the "N Word"?! Please!) aren't we attributing more power to it than it actually deserves?
"Nigger" is, after all, only a WORD -- a grouping of letters that create a sound. It is the context in which it is uttered that makes all the difference. No one thinks of the word "apple" as evil after all -- but if I tell you that I am going to "shove an apple up your ass", it takes on an entirely different meaning for you doesn't it?
If you use the "n" word again, I am going to shove an apple up your ass ...
See, Bat? Already I am being persecuted for agreeing with you on this topic! ;-)
That you immediately went to "He who must not be named" blows my mind. That was the exact parallel I was discussing with Al on the golf course this morning.
By the way, worry not about Al and any persecution. He was spouting horrid racisms all day at the golf course. We both agreed he was headed straight to hell.
the apple is for billyfish, core and all ...
Shoving an apple up you arse sounds FAGGOTTY. Does this mean I need to go to rehab?
I have a hard time believing black folks indignation at the NBOMB when I hear Dave Chappelle use it like mad or hear Denzel Washington overuse it in Training Day. Now I like both of those guys.
My gosh look what happened to Michael Richards and Don Imus-who didn't even say ni**er. Would the word nitter have the same effect? Nipper? Nipple?
This is one of my biggest pet peeves. For some reason, gender specific slurs i.e. bitch, pussy, etc are perfectly acceptable and allowable even on radio and television (unless you are using it toward a black woman). Meanwhile, racial slurs are SO offensive, we have to refer to them as the N-word? People who would never dream of letting a racially offensive remark slip past their lips routinely make sexist remarks. I mean how many people say, "He is such a nigger..." compared to the number of people who say, "She is such a bitch."
Don't get me wrong, I am not arguing for the use of "nigger" to return to the politically correct circle, but the double standard pisses me off. It is also reflective of deeper cultural biases. As recent as the late 60's early 70's women could not even rent apartments or obtain utilities without a man's signature. Women are still paid less than males in the work place, regardless of race. Gender and sexual orientation inspire far more prejudice than race these days, and our language reflects our values. Yes, I know I sound like a femi-natzi, which I am not.
...Don't even get me started on the way our society views impoverished/ignorant people.
Anyway, I like the topic, Billyfish. I agree with you. We should be able to have adult, intelligent coversation about any word. There is nothing worse than a child coming home and saying, "I saw 'fuck' on the wall. What does it mean?" and having his parents freak out or worse, punish him. "Nigger" is no different. I believe we should say all people specific slurs, routinely, or none at all, ever.
Nipple!
Nipple! Nipple! Nipple!
Sorry, I couldn't resist. "Nipple" is just fun to say.
Bully
Elaine...I agree the word Nigger has taken on some mythic, politically correct top spot in the list of No say-ums.
However, might one assume a "bitch" is truly a bitch, when a black man may not be a Nigger. One classifies peolple by race, while the other might be argued to classify people by their actions.
Fish has a point. Sometimes a motherfucker is truly a motherfucker.
I feel certain I know what a bitch is. I've never really known what makes a person a nigger. If I ever met a nigger maybe I would get it. Maybe I wouldn't get it and I would have to ask. Maybe I'll never see a nigger. I'll have to wait until I'm dead, and that'll be on the list of things I will ask God.
Who shot JFK?
Why is life full of needless suffering?
Could you please point out the niggers present?
BTW Fish, Elaine is going to drown you supposition in a sea of gotchas. I don't know how or even why... it's that word. . . something about that word.
It's interesting how compelling middle and upper-class white guys find it to discuss the merits of "nigger" when used in the proper context. It's like, "Hey, I'm a white guy who's tired of all the hype; I know oppression too, and I'm being discriminated against because I can't say nigger like a black guy and get away with it. Poor, disenfranchised white-guy me!"
Alas, I think Elaine's points are the only ones worth real contemplation here; the "why can't we say nigger" discusion is tired and old, and frankly, a bit lazy.
But then again, maybe I'm just being a contrary n*gger-c*nt (my favorite driving slur to utter in isolation.)
Voldemort.
Ok. Here goes. Though, I must admit the fear of no more pickles does tempt me to chicken out. No... we haven't eaten them yet, but I can tell they won't last long once we open them.
Unlike Brannon, I have met a "nigger." A nigger is an uneducated, uncooth, poor, black person, and typically considered lazy and or dishonest. There's your "actions based" link, Billyfish. Nigger does not apply equally to all black people. It is an actions based label. Hence the term, "white nigger" for those who are not black. I am not saying I believe the use of "nigger" or the beliefs attached to it to be correct, but that is the very unpleasant truth.
Your friend who educated you as to why nigger was offensive to black people most likely based his position on how black people were treated in the US, such as slavery, not being allowed to learn to read, being whipped and beaten, not being allowed membership to certain clubs, denied ownership of property, denied the vote, etc. and how difficult it has been for black americans to access full participation in our society.
So let's see how bitch stands up to this example. First, let's define "bitch." The actual definition for bitch is that it is a French word meaning a female dog, owned as property and used for the purpose of breeding. This term is still considered a valid and acceptable term, even is polite society, when used by breeders in reference to a female dog that is trying to be mated. The word in this form is commonly used today. I would suppose the derogatory connotation used toward women would come from the insuing dog fight that preceeded the actual mating.
But hey, cut the old girl some slack. Afterall, how many of us wouldn't be in a crappy mood after being thrown into a locked cage with some horny mut we had never met who wanted to fuck us, but I digress. Or do I...
Lets' see where was I? Oh yeah, comparing female plight to that of Black Americans, and nigger with bitch.
Woman have been (and still are many places) sold into slavery, forbidden to learn to read, denied the vote, denied ownership of property, bought/sold/traded as property themselves, whipped and beaten (see Rule of Thumb ), sacrificed to gods, awarded as prizes for spoils of war, raped, forced to marry, and impregnated against their will. Granted, bitch really only can be directly linked to the "considered property and impregnated against their will" part of the abuses the gender has endured... but gee, I can't think of anything worse than being impregnated against my will.
So, when I am called a bitch or hear someone (even a woman) call another woman a bitch... I remember the history (past and current) of my gender that allowed and accepted such treatment of women, I feel anger and deep sadness. On bad days, I feel like I am not as good men. Thankfully the last one is temporary insanity. I scorn the nonchalant manner in which society relegates the suffering of 50% of its inhabitants to meaningless hormonal blather. B once said in commentary about women's plight, "Women are the niggers of the world." He is right. He has also been known to say, "Women will not receive the same rights as men, until white men stand up for them just as white men stood up for the rights of black men." Sadly, I believe he is correct on that one too. I do sincerely believe language to be an honest reflection of a society's values. So, please don't take any of this personally. I can have a friendly debate about the use of the word bitch and still like men. Though, all this does not bode well for B's chances at getting laid later tonight.
I sure hope my embedded link works.
** Marilyn Yalom is a senior scholar at the Institute for Women and Gender at Stanford University. She is author of the The History of the Wife used above for reference to rule of thumb. She has written many books on similar topics.
John Lennon whispered that line to me about women being niggers. I said "hey theres another song for Yoko, it'll be a hit"! Yoko overheard this and took all the credit.
Man...
Just when I thought I completely agreed with Elaine, she goes and makes an analogy that is waaay off in scope and scale.
While there is no denying the historical facts of oppression against women, none of your arguments shows that oppression against women has ever been anywhere as deep and all-encompassing as oppression against blacks in the US from the time of reconstruction until the 1970's.
Nigger, as such, cannot be divorced from it's roots as a deliberately oppressive word with a deliberate target (ie black people) and because of this, those who say that there are "black" niggers and "white" niggers are either is willfully ignorant of their own racist tendencies, or are ignorant of the reality of southern racism and the lingering effects of decades of racial oppression.
OR, they're just a dumb bitch.
Jesus Christ...where do I start?
First...welcome to the discussion, your comments are most welcome.
Now Tyson...you missed my point entirely. I do not want permission for myself, as a "middle and upper class white guy" to say the word "Nigger". Nor am I complaining about the fact that I can't say it. I am foremost concerned with the absolute dread and horror that has been attached to this word in ANY context. Godammit...it is a shitty word when used to describe, indiscrimately, a class of people.
It is my understanding the word has its roots in the word "Niggardly", which could be used to describe a person of any race or class.
Again...not the point. WHY CAN THE WORD NOT BE USED IN A DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW BAD THE WORD IS!
And Elaine...sweet Elaine. Forgive me if I have misunderstood your post, but....
Women are still being oppressed in todays society? More so than Blacks and Mayan Virgins?
Please...move to the front of the "I can't let it go" list. True...women, blacks, Asians, Hispanics were treated as second class citizens in the past. Consider the point ceded. But, Jeez, those days are gone and have been for decades. If women and minorities can't get ahead in todays protected society, they just aren't trying. Minorities (including the mislabeled "Women") need to get over the past and concentrate on moving on. I never owned a slave and I don't beat my wife.
Goddammit...white men are tired of being blamed for shit their ancestors did.
Whew...that's a lot of venom to spew this late in a long day. Thanks for coming...please come again...
Ah, I finally remembered one of my points, and that is this:
though all of the following is true (and unjust)
Woman have been (and still are many places) sold into slavery, forbidden to learn to read, denied the vote, denied ownership of property, bought/sold/traded as property themselves, whipped and beaten (see Rule of Thumb ), sacrificed to gods, awarded as prizes for spoils of war, raped, forced to marry, and impregnated against their will.
Nowhere have women been subjected to these injustices on the same scale and with the same level of social institutionalization as blacks were during the civil war/reconstruction years. It is on the scale of social acceptance of these horrors where the differences truly show, and to say there is no difference is simply wrong.
Batman comments: "True...women, blacks, Asians, Hispanics were treated as second class citizens in the past. Consider the point ceded. But, Jeez, those days are gone and have been for decades."
Bat, truly you cannot believe that. Are you honestly saying that minorities are never treated, perceived, or stigmatized as second class citizens in our present society? Tell me that again the next time you hear a racist joke, or are told that we should "just shoot" those "damn wetbacks" who are coming across our borders, or see the name "Shanequa" on a job application or in the newspaper and automatically create a stereotyped image of an uneducated black woman in your head. We may not be forcing people of color to use separate water fountains any more, but we are certainly not "decades past" stigmatizing the minority population.
Now, as far as the word "bitch" is concerned, I use it freely and with complete abandon, and I have only been "called down" for it by other women on a handful of occasions (with one of those occasions being by Batman's secretary. Ouch!). I have never seen anyone, however, as passionately against the word as Elaine -- whose indignant comments were both enlightening and highly entertaining, by the way. Let's just SEE that Yoko Ono bitch try to take credit for THOSE thoughts!
Says Tyson: "But then again, maybe I'm just being a contrary n*gger-c*nt (my favorite driving slur to utter in isolation.)"
I like to imagine Tyson covertly sputtering "n*gger-c*nt" under his breath whilst driving around in the van which he has cleverly dubbed "Bango Skank".
It makes me chortle.
Oh, Tyson, I disagree. I think history does bare out women of all races and societies are most often a lower class citizen than their male counterparts and denied the simple rights men enjoy of that societal enjoy. I can't think of a single society in which men have not had or do not still have the right to kill their wife, and at the very least "discipline" them. The fact that Primae Noctis , though controversial in Europe, was even an accepted belief demonstrates the wide spread, cross cultural social status of women. Even as recent as the 20th century, men in the US have been granted "conjugal rights" in marriage as a matter of written law, i.e. a wife did not have the right to say no to intercourse with her husband. A man having sex with his wife against her will was not considered rape, but his right.
Only recently, waay after black men, have women even been allowed full access into this society and been granted full autonomy in matters of property, contract, even utilities for Christ sake. I am talking late 60's and early 70's. When my father left my mother, she couldn't even rent an apartment or get electricity without my grandfather's co-signature. Black men did not need the co-signature of their fathers to do those things.
For that matter, as recent as the 50's it was not at all uncommon for a woman to go have a hysterectomy and not even know what the doctors were doing or why. The husband made all the decisions, signed all the concent forms, and decided if the women would or even should be told. It was also not uncommon during that time for women to go into labor, got to the hospital and have no idea what was happening; and if the husband said not to explain it to her then the doctors and clergy were silent. Thanks to modern anesthesia techniques, the woman was never the wiser.
As recent as the 60's and 70's women could not have any surgical procedure without their husband's full knowledge and consent. Why do you think abortion is such a hot topic? It was not even uncommon in the 80's for women to have to obtain their husband's permission to have surgery. I know because I was married in the 80's and went through it. Women in the noble Land of the Free have not even had the simple and basic rights over their own bodies as black men have had for decades. The most rudimentary look at medical history will prove my point, not to mention business history, real estate history, don't even get me started on religious history. It is excatly this sort common misunderstanding in our society that makes me not want to give up any ground on legal abortion. The history of abortion itself demonstrates how much of an underclass women truly are.
To you Billyfish, first off a hearty "well done" on a topic well chosen!
And on to your recent comments, Billyfish...
I understand what you are saying, and yes, much ground has been made. But no, those who have been oppressed can not, and should not forget. No, we don't have to carry it like a badge, but we can't forget. That would be wrong and dangerous. There are simply too many people out there in this big bad world who would love nothing more than to rid the world of what ever group they don't like. And, there are certainly plenty of men who would love to force women back into subjugation to male dominance. Sure I tout how much I love being "barefoot and pregnant with chain only long enough to reach from the bed to the kitchen,' but that is only because I have the liberty to choose. Without that liberty, I would not be free to express such things. I personally often deal with misogyny, and I see racism every day. The fact of the matter is, I am more vulnerable than you in many situations because of my social status. You don't see it, Billyfish, because you are a white male. That doesn't mean I outright blame you personally for what happens. Though, I do think white men should be more proactive. The biggest thing is how the past is white washed. Just as recent as my mother's time and up into the 70's (before Roe V. Wade) when a girl in high school got pregnant she was refused public education and shipped off in shame while her male counterpart was untouched. Her only choice to save face was marriage. Yes, it's the past. It is. But it isn't that long ago. And to say (which you didn't, Tyson did) that women have not been marginalized as much as black men, well... they were still refusing public education (a constitutiona right) to pregnant girls long after desegregation.
Ah, as to the point you finally remembered, Tyson... clearly you know little of marriage law, be it Islam marriage law, Christain marriage law, Hindu marriage, the marriage laws of many Africans, and well too many to name religious or societal.
"Nowhere have women been subjected to these injustices on the same scale and with the same level of social institutionalization as blacks were during the civil war/reconstruction years."
Yes, Tyson, woman have been subjected to these injustices on at least the same scale and the same social institutionalization. Most marriage laws and traditions, religous or societal, span thousands of years. Some have only changed in recent history, while many remain unchanged in many parts of the world.
I just want to qualify one point. I agreed with Billyfish that many things are in the past. For women, that is only true in the Western world. And as a woman, I can't help but feel deep compassion for other women world wide who are still oppressed. So in some ways, it isn't in the past.
Have like totally managed to remove myself from the pickle list for next year?
If I were Elaine's husband Brannon, I would be so hot right now.
Hmmm... not sure why B should be hot? As in mad? Oh wait... referencing back to the probability of getting laid?? Yeah... :) But only if he does best Jimmy Stuart impression (which is fantastic... I LOVE Jimmy Stuart) while he calls me his whore.
His whore, huh? Not his bitch?
Sorry baby, I couldn't resist. ;-)
The Jimmy Stewart voice is also hot whenever your man bends you over the couch, grabs you by the hair, and makes you call him "Daddy".
It's especially yummy if he uses the sexy, raspy "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington"-end-of-the-filibuster-speech voice.
Just thought I would interject a bit of levity. Billyfish has never even met me... probably thinks I'm a whack job who should just go to a PETA meeting and be done with it.
Do you know what a moment of conflict is? When a PETA member's cat has an unwanted pregnancy.
Think I may have to go back to the benign golf posts while I wait for the dust to clear.
My final thoughts on this topic...I am no closer to an understanding of why we cannot use the word Nigger in a discourse about whether it should be used or not, but thanks for your input.
Thank you Elaine for at least acknowledging that we have come a long way in this country towards erasing BLATANT gender and racial discrimination. I acknowledge that it is still there to a level, but not State sponsored. Us poor, put upon white males just want some understanding of our frustration. You mentioned many problems from the 70's and 80's...but guess what, Old Woman. Those were 20 and 30 years ago, respectively.
As to the plight of women around the world...not much I can, or plan to do about that. I, and my white American brothers apparently have our hands full completing the job here at home.
Finally...as long as people enjoy my pickles, they shall remain on my list..Let not your heart be troubled.
Well, thank you for the opportunity to vent... and B thanks you, too. This is my first week back in school with students. I love them. But, every year I go through culture shock, white guilt, and outrage at what I see happening in our society with respect to race and gender as we (the educated class) go bithely along. My job is very rewarding, but also very taxing. I'll toughen up as year progresses and strike up an emotional balance and peace with it all.
Well, this is one of my favorite subjects. I, personally, beleive that language evolves over time. Words change in pronunciation and in meaning as the years roll by. Of course to every rule, there is an exception.
"Nigger" is not a proper word, nor has it ever been so. During the days of slavery, Nigger was a term applied in a condescending manner to slaves. Free blacks were Negros. I guess you can see why, over time, this uneducatated, barbaric word has retained its sting in the black community. By using the word Nigger, you are in effect endorsing slavery or, at the least, using redneck slang to degrade another human being. Slang is not diction.
I am among the guilty in the use of this word. I will be the first to admit to it. But I at least know what it is that I am doing when I use this word and feel some guilt or remorse over it. Not because I think I am guilty for opressing the black people simply because my ancestors may have owned slaves, but because I am an educated PERSON and I know what this word means to others around me.
Honestly, I expected better of everyone here on this subject, knowing the intellectual levels of the participants.
Elaine, hon, everything is not a personal women's rights battle. I know that you have your cause, but the abuse and desicration of an entire race can not compare with that of the female gender. The main difference here is choice. Women have shown in the west that they have a choice in how they live and how they are treated. They, in large, outnumber men. In general they are more intelligent than men are. There is no disputing this fact. Women are oppressed only when they allow this to happen. They allow their mothers, sisters, brothers, and fathers to train their beleifs, thus creating a state of slavery. If they wish to have freedom from their oppressors, they can have it, just as has been done here in western civilization. All it takes is free thought.
The fundamental difference is that with slavery, which is still very prominant in the world today, the choice is simple. Life or Death. If slaves were to rebel, they would be the victims of superior technology and quite often numbers. If women choose to rebel, their only opposition is the men that sleep near them. Not much opposition to deal with. Everyone is equal while sleeping.
No, this is the discussion of a word and its meaning. I will never condone the use of a word that is based purely in hatred and ignorance. I hope that you, the brilliant people here, will agree on this point.
Mariner...thanks for your late input into the discussion. Please refer to the final sentence of the first paragraph of my original post.
I am in no way condoning the use of the word Nigger as a perjorative, and I do not believe any of the other brilliant people who responded here do either. Simply questioning why it cannot be used in a simple discussion of the word.
As to Elaine...we ate pickles and made up...so I have nothing to add.
And...oh yeah. The fact that you used the word Nigger several times in your response is what I am talking about. You were not so offended by the word in that context that you could not use it, instead of falling back on "N-Word".
Good for you...that's what I am talking about.
Sorry, my mind went out on a tangent as it tends to do sometimes. I didn't even end up where I was originally headed and wound up over in left field.
Where I originally intended to head, after explaining how badly I hated the word, was that the entire word needs to die. It makes no significant contribution to our language and is simply redneck slang.
In order for it to die, all conversations with the word in it need to die. If it disappeared for a full generation, perhaps it would be as dead as old english and never used again.
Sorry I ended up on a tangent before, my mind flows wherever it wants to.
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